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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1469
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Posted - 2013.03.08 14:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:Even if you insane highsec bears don't think nullsec should have industry that is better than highsec, it's pretty unarguable that the current industry capabilities in nullsec are a joke and need a big boost. Even if it were brought up to say 75% of that of highsec, nullsec would be a much more vibrant place you are saying it like anyone from high-sec would care about how vibrant is 0.0  the main problem here is: this rebalance can't be done without nerfing high-sec. NERFING HIGH-SEC BECAUSE OF SOME WHINY 0.0-SECCERS. That's why you will not see enough support from high-seccers.
Good thing we don't needs your support, since your kind can't be bothered to so much as click a louse to vote for csm lol.
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific
Initiative Mercenaries
1594
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Posted - 2013.04.09 16:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
BoBoZoBo wrote:This is such an exhausted argument -
Null sec's industry should be as good as the residents can make it - and that is EXATLY what is going on now.
How good do you think any industry can be when you lock out all your stations and kill everything not blue.
Nullbears have all the tools they need to make a success ful industry base - they choose to do other things.
They are getting exactly what they are giving to the effort.
This person has never been to null sec, my crystal ball tells me so.
How good can INDUSTRY be by locking out stations and killing non-blues? y6ea, that stuff totally makes a few SYSTEMS in high sec have as many manufacturing slots as entire null sec REGIONS. At also makes null sec mining less profitable that doing it in the safety of high sec....
The problems with null sec industry are structural, they have nothing to do with activity. CCP understands this which is why ccp is addressing (finally) the issues.
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific
Initiative Mercenaries
1597
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Posted - 2013.04.10 12:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
And now to get back on track :) .
The Question is: should null industry be better than high sec industry.
The real answer is - NO, it shouldn't by default be better, but players in null sec should (IF they put in the time and effort, risk loss and work to defend it) be able to build the "99% self sufficient" industrial empires CCP has said they them to be able to.
A player should be able to just live and play in null sec if thats what they choose to do. As it s now, that's nearly impossible, somehow, in some way either that player has to go back to "empire" (or maintain an empire presence via alts) for stuff OR pay someone else to bring them stuff from empire. After 10 years of spenidng TRILLIONS of isk and fighting (killing millions of ships), null sec has 3% of high sec's industrial capacity.
Is a player wants to live in null sec and be an industrialist/builder/whatever, they syhould be able to do that without having to be dependent on empire, in the EXACt same way that a player who doesn't want to leave high sec should not be forced to. High sec partisans wo't back any change though, because one the one hand they are condemning the kinds of people who go to null sec while on the other hand they are happily selling them the fruits of their high sec carebearing.....
Please CCP, free us from Core Worlds/High Sec Tyranny!. Cuba Null Sec Libre! |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific
Initiative Mercenaries
1597
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Posted - 2013.04.10 13:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:I'll agree that it shouldn't be better by default -- but, with the right amount of effort, it should be better, and be able to cut itself off from empire -- with the exception that minerals and moongoo be exported to fund the alliances (because you still need ISK to pay off CONCORD, etc).
Needing to ship stuff to empire to fund alliances is still dependence, and ccp's stated goal for null was virtual independence ("99% self sufficent").
The relationship between null and high (and all other parts of EVE) should be free and fair trade, not the current one way slavery to high sec.
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific
Initiative Mercenaries
1598
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Posted - 2013.04.10 13:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
well. i can;t say much about SOV-tax values but....
All 0.0 regions has NPC with bounties. So (theoretically) 0.0 every alliance has direct stream of ISK from ratting. Isn't it a way to complete self-sufficient funding?[/quote]
What do you spend the isk on in null sec if all the builders (even the one who WANT to build in null sec) are livng in high sec.
We're talking about industry, not isk. BUT if we are talking about is, it's still easier to make almost as much is (or more if you count incursions) in high sec.
Quote:
What does high-sec have no one outside has too?
Short answer: Jita market and industrial capacities. That's all.
However high-sec needs a lot: materials for T3, materials for T2, dead-space stuff, high-level minerals, ...
Where is the real slavery then?
High sec eosn't "need" the stuff wormholes and null sec provide. You don't HAVE to fly Tengus and machariels, in a real pinch you can fly locally produced tech 1 ships just fine if that's all you had.
Null sec NEEDS things that can't be produced locally (or that cost too much to produce locally). With 3% of high sec building capacity, null sec can't provide the numbers of complete ships needed to maintain current levels of PVP, we NEED ships built in empire.
Null sec NEEDs what high sec has, High sec just "wants" what comes from outside but doesn't need it, so yes, the rest of us ARE slaves to high sec. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific
Initiative Mercenaries
1598
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Posted - 2013.04.10 14:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Better prices is not relevant to autonomy though. That's the crux I think.
We dont want better prices than high sec just the ability to match them when building out in 0.0.
And thats the point (so simple a point yet so hard for some to grasp).
It's like that in more than industry. For instance I can and do kill npcs in null sec, but I can make the same or more isk in empire running incursions not having to stare at local while someone else does all the driving. End result, I spend more time doing incursions than null sec ratting, as do many of my peers.
The industiralist can do many things in null, but its freer, easier and cheaper to do it in empire. A whole class of players are virtually forced to live in space they don't want to by circumstance.
High sec player whine all the time about feeling forced to do this or that (they aren't forced, ccp just did things to "encourage" them out of high sec), but its perfectly ok to those same high sec players that high sec be so good as to make many activities in null sec basically moot.
I don't think industrialists are looking for more isk, they would simply like to leave where they want, just like the high sec people. I don't know what's wrong with that idea.
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific
Initiative Mercenaries
1598
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Better prices is not relevant to autonomy though. That's the crux I think.
We dont want better prices than high sec just the ability to match them when building out in 0.0. Are you willing to give up sov null for that though? Meh, probably even null period come to think of it. Because it just sounds like you're wanting the baby without having the labor pains (not to be confrontational but I am calling it as I see it). EDIT- That sounds harsh, sorry for that. I just see how people are explaining to me how things are working and it proves it is working how it should, but then people say how it's broken. To me it isn't broken, just people want it improved.
It is broken, null sec players should not be slaves to high sec interests. Dealing with high sec should be a matter of choice not necessity.
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific
Initiative Mercenaries
1598
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Posted - 2013.04.10 14:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Better prices is not relevant to autonomy though. That's the crux I think.
We dont want better prices than high sec just the ability to match them when building out in 0.0. Are you willing to give up sov null for that though? Meh, probably even null period come to think of it. Because it just sounds like you're wanting the baby without having the labor pains (not to be confrontational but I am calling it as I see it). EDIT- That sounds harsh, sorry for that. I just see how people are explaining to me how things are working and it proves it is working how it should, but then people say how it's broken. To me it isn't broken, just people want it improved. It is broken, null sec players should not be slaves to high sec interests. Dealing with high sec should be a matter of choice not necessity. Players shouldn't be slaves to isk at all. That's the problem. Because it is a choice. You can produce anything in null you need to survive. The possibility is there. What remains, is the choice to wait, or plan a much more detailed oriented program to get the same things from highsec (albeit cheaper). It does work, just not as well as you'd like. That's why it's a choice.
So you're saying that something is ok because you can just choose to suffer through it?
That's insane. Who does that? Do you?
If you were forced by circumstance to do things you'd rather not in a game (because the alternative is even more sucky stuff you'd have to do), your tune would change.
No one is asking for perfection, simply EQUAL opportunity. Hell, not even equal, high sec people get FOR FREE all the things the null industrialist want but will have to pay for in time and effort.
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific
Initiative Mercenaries
1598
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Posted - 2013.04.10 16:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
It's "ok" to have to take the stairs once in awhile.
Null sec is forced to use the stairs everytime (it only has 3% of an elevator after all) to get to a roach infested studio apartment on the 50th floor that null sec has to pay $2000 a month for..
Meanwhile high sec gets free rocket propelled elevator service to the penthouse suite complete with half-naked Swedish maid service and all the Cavier high sec can eat, FOR FREE (and without even having to look at local).
Yea, it's that broken. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific
Initiative Mercenaries
1598
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 17:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
Yeep wrote:
Given the choice of performing two different tasks with the same result (a thing to sell on the market) why would you not choose the one that also makes you more profit. Your argument here is really "why don't nullsec people do stupid things to prove a point?".
Damn, even the Goons get it.
:)
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific
Initiative Mercenaries
1598
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:22:00 -
[11] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
Ride your pony and forget the whistle.
Too bad you got it back wards. High Sec has a pony, null sec has a whistle the pony swallowed and the we just not got back because the pony had a good BM after eating Mexican food last night. No the whistle (which is, oh, about 3% of a pony) is all crappy.
Also the high sec pony has 6 legs and breathes fire. We just want some epic pony action in null.
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific
Initiative Mercenaries
1599
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 18:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Ride your pony and forget the whistle.
Too bad you got it back wards. High Sec has a pony, null sec has a whistle the pony swallowed and the we just not got back because the pony had a good BM after eating Mexican food last night. No the whistle (which is, oh, about 3% of a pony) is all crappy. Also the high sec pony has 6 legs and breathes fire. We just want some epic pony action in null. Nullsec are the ones who consider themselves lords. Highsec denizens have to "work for the man" in regards to rules and laws and such. I realize it may have been lost on you, and that's fine. It's not an argumentative point. You don't need to understand. It's just really hard to convince someone "i'm only using this because not only is it the best thing to use for my gains, it's broken".
Lost on me lol.
The fact is you're wrong, and you're wrong because you fundamentally can't understand an argument that doesn't fit into your black and white nonsense world. This is the reason why you constantly find yourself arguing with a half a dozen people in every single thread you post in. Instead of the eternal circle jerk "discussion" you participate in, has it ever crossed your mind to try to understand why others think what they do (and why so many people oppose what you post time and time again)?
I'm betting the answer is no.
You are not some oracle of wisdom the rest of us "just can't get", you're a flawed thinker defending flawed logic. CCP has already said they are going to take a look at null industry, so you should just prepare yourself for it now.
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